True, I will say however that at the time I purchased bitcoins contract I read through it double by line and no where did they say what the fees were, only that they were mathematics. My fault for taking that at face value. FAQ - You got questions? That's a 100 misleading statement trying to entice noobs to buy your worthless cloud contracts. This is a Good question, with the amount of people hours they should be their own pool. You are an idiot. It's almost your MLM but more on that in a future post.
File this under the i told you so category: A lot more, that's my point. Please login or register. To you let you know that figure will decrease over time! In the end, you've lost your money.
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No where did we promise you a return of investment. No where did we even mention that you would get a return of investment. With all due respect, I didn't propose a lawsuit, whomever I replied to proposed one.
And more importantly, what I mentioned in my last response is not in any way fraudulent. People can enter into a contract, become unsatisfied with the product or service and request compensation, it happens every day in business. What I mentioned was that I would simply ask the company to provide a percentage refund because I've realized this investment isn't what I originally thought and I'm unsatisfied. If they felt kind enough to refund me any amount it would have been out of simple good customer service.
If they did not, I would still be in the same place I am now, in a contract that I'm not fully satisfied with but still mining. Chargeback fraud would be if I had benefitted from the transaction in any way and then asked my credit card company for example to refund the purchase and dispute the claim, none of which I am doing. There is materially no difference in doing that and in offering cloud mining contracts, especially since no one will reach a return on their initial investment when entering into a contract with GM.
I had assumed your 'call to community' action was linked to the 'CAL' argument. The chargeback fraud argument is entirely based on the CAL argument - it wouldn't happen. It just would be thrown out of court.
So, disregard all of this - I suck cocks, and owe you a beer. What's your BTC address? I do work for Genesis Mining - I stated it a few times. The problem is that it gets very frustrating for everyone when we offer a product - straight hash power - and people get angry because they're not making profit.
I am passionate about them - because there's a lot going on behind the scenes that the community doesn't see, or that never gets attention. Like how we stay up until 6 am answering trolls on Reddit. Or how we spend hours working on open source software that has no financial benefit to us, and actually encourages people to mine on their own hardware - rather than with the cloud mining contracts.
I mean, people are going to buy it. At least this way, they're going with someone who's legitimate, has been vetted by consumer reports, and has a track record of offering exactly what you pay for. Can you please define the return policies so that we don't abuse them? Your contracts talk about cancelling for good cause and describe a refund process. Can you explain how that works? This wasn't the best time to assess the returns and hence so far 2.
Mining before the halving was profitable, but not after my conclusion. I need to get back another 0. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to sell the hashing power. I wanted people to have real facts to measure against using a calculator and the reality of it all. I hope that the Bitcoin price increase so you can break even.
But the reality is, many people are being ripoff, so if enough people get tougher to put pressure on them, they may reduce or eliminate their daily fees. The same calculator you used - he brought 16 TH, correct?
And his wallet shows a daily payout of 0. That's about 4 USD a day. Our daily maintenance fee consists of all the expenses of mining. This includes the electricity fee, the infrastructure costs such as rack space, cooling, security, and general maintenance. It also covers the costs of spare parts like fans these break at an alarming rate!
Boards overheat, fans break down, circuits degrade - the average person doesn't have time to babysit his hardware while he gets on with his day. It depends on the price of Bitcoin and the network difficulty. I truly respect your business and your effort to democratize Bitcoin mining, and bring many new people to cryptocurrency echo system. I was my self interested in to Genesis Mining, and how easy to get involved into Bitcoin mining, But I was shocked when I found, that's by design, impossible to make a ROI in any future.
I understand that your business has many ongoing expenses, and charging your clients to offset those costs is necessary for the prosperity of your business. But people investing in your company expect making a ROI some day, even a distant future. As you know in the agreement, there is two fees, Upfront fee and the daily fee. I assume the Upfront fee cover the cost of upgrading new equipment, and the daily fees cover the ongoing expenses. But in reality, mining equipment depreciate quickly, and sold right after making their costs, thus reducing considerably their ongoing expenses and risk of failure.
The mining difficulty increase make the hashing power invested obsolete in few weeks, I know you don't have control over that, But the fact the daily fees don't decreases make it impossible for the Bitcoin mined to cover the daily fees overtime, thus bring the contract to zero! The only way I can see people making money doing business with your company, regardless of the price Bitcoin, is by reducing the daily fee overtime, thus making ROI in the long term.
The way I see Cloud Mining, is distributing the cost of the mining hardware and the operating cost among many contacts, to share in the end the Bitcoin rewards equally and proportionally.
But in your case, your business is the only beneficiary. The-the daily fees do decrease. They have, many times over. The last time was December 13th, at 0. Do the daily fees decrees for new contracts only or ongoing contracts too?
If yes, how we can verify the daily fee cost history? Even with a fee of 0. They decrease for all contracts.
And what do you consider profitable? When are you trying to ROI? If you're planning on making back your initial investment in a few months - you're mining the wrong coin. What am saying is, that the daily fee will eventually eat up all the the BTC rewards before and shutdown the contract before you can even make any ROI.
It - it won't at all. You get a payout every day of 4 USD give or take a few cents. Your daily fee is. That leaves you with 3. Dude sign me up right away! You'd ROI in one year. Wait until it skyrockets in price. It's really late here in Sweden - 6am, actually.
I've been up trying to help folks out in this thread but I'm getting pretty tired, so I'm going to call it a night. Give me a PM if you want some more assistance. Also, don't hesitate to tell me what you pay for electricity - we can probably work out, then, if you'd ROI from buying a miner, and mining, or if it's smarter to just buy a contract. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us at Genesis Mining! Sorry for keeping you busy this late!
Just to clarify my self again. Am not saying your company is not legit or you can't ROI, I believe your business can be a good solution to invest Bitcoin for long term and protect against Bitcoin price fluctuation.
But for now that fees can't make the contracts ROI any future term. Hey, thanks for posting this. I just did my own maths for this, just to make sure, and you're completely right.
This community really is great! It's really not that difficult, people So, in very simplified terms:. Your purchased hashing power will mine X Bitcoin per day. This number can go up and down based on various factors They will deduct Y Bitcoin from your daily payout as a maintenance fee. Let's say you spend a nice round number To spread the risk, to raise money, to grow, etc.
Same principle really, not a scam just based on that single fact And Y is part of their income: Is that going to be more or less than 1. To put it really simply: Because there's still going to be a "Y": Are you willing to spend the time and effort? Yes, yes, and hellsyes? Then by all means - go for it! Hope this helps at least one person I should get free hashing power from Genesis for this I used this website for that figure, and it's just a reference, you right it will decrease at each difficulty increase.
You guys are no way near the real truth! RDF how do you manage to keep your funds in Gensis-Mining. When you choose coin to mine with auto over the coin ti mines the most profitebel coin on that algo. Genesis is unike pleas don't talk about stuff you have no idee about. It is always a risk in investing. You buy mining equipment and pay for power up front not bitcoin. You can't get a better deal then that on rising prises in the crypto space.
It is not a scam it is mining, if you don't understand it don't do it. Technicaly you need to expand with your earnigs, like every miner need to do. Plus you bet that that will increase in the long run like all mining. We don't have enough users in crypto to earn much higher then orginal blockfee. If fold more start useing cryptocoins over night you would be roi in no time.. You one of thoose that say buy and hold insteed?
You don't get profit of your coins when holding unless you have some insane staking coin. People are still cloud mining? Its a rip off. Just do regular buys from an exchange and transfer your coins off. A lot of people! Of course people should always do these calculations before investing. Genesis Mining has not kept up to date with evolution of mining hardware and can't currently provide profitable Bitcoin cloud mining service. No, it's really, really not. It's meant to be competitive with mining on your own hardware - which it is.
It's not true, If I buy my own hardware, I have the option to sell it after I cover the cost, with your company I am stuck! Yes, that's very true. But the entire point is that Genesis Mining always has the latest hardware - e. They don't charge you anything extra. Many of these operations fractionally reserve mine and are set up as ponzis as well so you also cannot guarantee your money is buying any hashpower at all. Read this for more information - https: Keep in mind that those not considered a ponzi or fraud will likely become one in the future in this list.
If you want to mine than: Thank you for your advise! A lot of Youtubers advertise their affiliate link like hell, I will try to figure out If MG is Ponzi scheme with more proof, but for now I have this.
We should spread the message every where, more Bitcoin speakers should talk about this on YT. They do pay into my addresses in drips and drabs, though it certainly isn't going to be enough to pay off my initial outlay. But you can sell your hash on their exchange. So you can recover your principle. Call you please, tell me how you sell your hash power? I can't find a way out in their agreement. You cant for genesis. I said hash nest is legitimate.
They're owned by bit main, the mining hardware company in china, and the antpool owners. Unfortunately when I first got into bitcoin a year ago I fell victim to Genesis. At least to reduce the daily fees or eliminate them. To get you money back, Am afraid there is one solution "Class Action Lawsuit". Cloud mining is meant for people who can not run their own hardware, but want to experience mining. It is not meant for the average person looking to make a quick buck.
Everyone who is hoping for to make it rich - you missed that train. Genesis Mining offers it. Bitcoin Mining is currently for people who enjoy that gamble. It's meant to be comparable to mining on your own hardware. As for being a scam - heh. I mean, do you really think companies who hold their journalistic integrity to the highest standard would interview or host articles supporting a scam company? If they were doing everything they can then their advertisement on their website would clearly tell users that they will lose Bitcoin investing I n your cloud mining contracts.
Genesis Mining does not advertise that. Instead they lead people to believe they will make a good return in either fiat value or Bitcoins for these contracts. They encourage customers to reinvest the scraps of Bitcoins Genesis sends to them into more unprofitable contracts.
That's just a flat out scam. Genesis Mining is lying by omission at the very least. It is fraudulent and I hope the newcomers to our community can be forewarned. They do not encourage customers to reinvest the 'scraps' into contracts. We have no control over that. We allow it, but we don't say on our website, "HEY!
What would you suggest? A complete rewrite of the website? Could you point out exactly what part of the website you think should be rewritten? I will look into it. As I have said many times, but I'll repeat here: You make more from mining with Genesis Mining than you would mining with your own hardware provided you pay for electricity in your country.
If you're comparing it to buying Bitcoin from an exchange - well, duh. Of course it seems bad. So you should tell your potential customers, you will lose a lot of money trying to run 1 rig on your own, so hand us your money and you will lose less. You all know very well the contracts are never profitable in any fucking sense of logic or reality. Your company scams people out of Bitcoin for having them reinvest into shitty contracts that will never generate a profit.
It's a fucking joke for anyone who understands Bitcoin. Your company is ripping off newcomers into our community. So congrats, your business model is to sell people Bitcoin mining contracts that will never be profitable when compared to buying Bitcoin directly. So why not add that this statement to your site? Then include links to exchanges that will hopefully not rip off our beloved noobs. And to say rewrite the whole website to add a couple sentences? I guess the pages are just loaded up with too many scam contracts for some integrity and honesty.
Or maybe this one. Hell, even Bits Be Trippin' took a look at us. They might not be now, but in the beginning, a lot of customers made bank. We offer it because, whether you like it or not, people will buy mining contracts - at least this way, we ensure they actually get what they pay for - hash rate.
They pay for hash, they get hash. We're not running off with their coins. You can see our farms. Yes, it is a joke for most miners. But again, this isn't meant for most miners who have the capability of running their own hardware - it's meant for people who want to enjoy the gamble of mining, without any of the stress of setting up a mining rig and maintaining it. We can't say that they'd never be profitable, because that would be a lie.
Some people do profit, and they continue to post on Youtube, Facebook and Twitter, with proof, but none of that matters in the heat of the moment, does it? As for 'they're never going to be profitable': They would be, in a few years. It's a hell of a lot faster than if you were running your own hardware at home. Just answer this one question.
Where does it say on your website that for an individual miner wanting to mine it is not profitable given the current difficulty rating, semi annual new hardware releases, and cost of electricity? You lead people on to think they are going to make a return on their investment, when they are not.
It would be, it would have been, and will most likely always be more profitable to buy your coins upfront and hold. That is true for 99 percent of your customers. One more time for you. Your whole fucking business model and marketing is geared towards scamming noobs into buying worthless mining contracts that 99 percent of the time will lose money.
Actually, we do say that on our website. Here's a screenshot but you'll also see the costs and benefits comparison chart if you scroll down here. You're letting anger fuel your argument, instead of logic. Take a step back, take a breather. Believe me, if the 'whole fucking business model' was meant to 'scam noobs', I wouldn't be here.
Because they don't scam people, they don't lie, and they're doing everything in their power to be kind and offer people what they want - cloud mining - but then people like you come in, and make us really reconsider. Ok, you are crazy. The headline of the page you sent a screen shot of says, "Why it's more profitable to mine with Genesis Mining". That's a fucking misleading statement trying to entice noobs to buy your worthless cloud contracts.
It is in no way more profitable. It's burning less money. That's all it is. The majority of your customers do not own a mining rig, so your claims you are helping some poor innocent first time miners to save money is a lie.
It's a marketing gimmick created to sell contracts that are only profitable for your company, never the customer. Lots of your wonderful customers have already chimed in to share their experiences being ripped off by your company and shit contracts. Your company is loathed in this community, for obvious reasons.
Go back to your scamming headquarters and start selling contracts for OneCoin you dicks. When you have your won hardware you have the option to sell it after covering the cost, with your company you guys take people by the balls!
You don't sell your own hardware for a 'profit', and it will NEVER cover the cost of running your miner. Mining is expensive, it costs a pretty penny. What do you pay for electricity? Let's do the math. You can buy a Antminer R4 8. Power consumption W at 0.
Doing the calculation using this website , after year you will get 1, If your miner is a year old it will still sell for a few hundred bucks on eBay. That helps you try to get a ROI. Now, in Denmark, you'll pay about EUR 0. How do I "experience" mining with a cloud contract? Its just money in and coins back. There is no experience. There are no actions to be taken. Secondly, please illustrate a time, any time, when for some people it was more profitable to buy a contract than the coins outright?
You mentioned it, now follow up with an example that includes specific details. Gambling assumes risk and reward, not just risk. Please detail an example of someone winning. And don't use USD in that explanation, just use coins in your explanation. In terms of bitcoin I would have been better off buying 8 coins. So far I have only earned about 3. Thanks for your sentiments and I agree we might want to organize a call among the community. This is something I have no experience with but are there others interested in pursuing this?
Up until now, I've sort of just written off my bad decision as a loss but any creative ideas to get them to agree to refunding me anything would be appreciated. Genesis Mining's contract terms are explicit. This is a brick-and-mortar entity that has operating expenses, much like any other. Those who choose to invest are asked to read and electronically sign off on unambiguous contract terms before submitting remittance, not exactly the behavior of a fly-by-night.
In addition to a Genesis rep, the company's co-founder has even chimed in on the thread, providing a lucid explanation of the business model, yet the caterwauling persists; ad hominem arguments in addition to clearly false assertions that Genesis prompts investors to re-invest in hashing power to overcome btc mining difficulty.
One is at a loss as to the motivation. Over the past several months this commenter has invested a considerable sum in Genesis much more than anyone commenting on this thread because I believe in Bitcoin's appreciation and the company's business model and integrity.
Maybe I'll take a bath. Thus far the company's performance, customer service, and overall reliability has been impressive, far exceeding contract terms.
Dude, what are you ties to GM? Are working for a marketing firm, on behalf of GM? Dude, you have one karma, so I think your comment are disingenuous. Almost fell with 1 BTC but didn't. It depends, if you're having a substantial amount of BTC, holding is always the right decision. If you're going to gamble, trading is a lot of fun, but you have enter and exit at the right time. For now, the price of BTC is too high I won't recommend. You are an idiot.
You have counted your one time expense of USD twice. It's a bit to do with the language of the contract but you simply counted your initial cost twice. Nope, you're the idiot! Do you're reading carefully and ask you question my friend. Yes, you have made a mistake. I have paid for two such contracts. The upfront cost is paid only once and that is the only one-off cost you pay.
All the costs mentioned in the contract are the only costs you bear. One one-off cost and one daily maintenance cost. And for the contracts without maintenance costs, the one off cost is the only thing you pay. Like I paid I approached this totally differently. I have been buying bitcoins for years and essentially holding on to them.
I sold them at the peak a few months ago, made a lot of money and started looking around for cheap bitcoins. The way I saw Genesis was that I could buy bitcoins over a longer period and it would cost me less than paying full price today.
And because I knew I would be holding on to them for at least 3 years this totally appealed to me. It's the commodity I desire, not the quick profit. I see bitcoins like a precious metal to be retained for a long period to make staggering profits years down the line. And if I don't spend them my family will fill my sarcophagus with them so I can have the ultimate pyramid party in the afterlife. Said no one ever.
I am sorry to dissapoint, but how can you claim you 'did the math' as you clearly didn't. First of all you have an "upfront fee" if you read the contract you would understand that the "cost of the equipment" and the "upfront fee" is the same thing. So in your calculation you substracted the cost twice, resulting in the huge loss you are describing.
Your actual calculation would be So please before doing the "10 year olds math" make sure you are older than 10 and informed on what is happening. Have you tried it yourself? Or you are claiming your accusations on your terrible math?
So please next time, before influancing many people with your false information, educate yourself, and don't make this kind of posts. And second, cloud mining can still be profitable for the people whose power cost is riddiculusly high, and mining at home is not profitable as you can imagine not everyone is living in US, or UK or whatever.
Yes they may charge a bit more of the equippent, but you can still be profitable. And for all the other people, if you see one post like this you would immediately say, "oh yea this is a scam". But if you see posts that say it is legit, then you would still not be sure if it is. It is the same thing, look for other sources of information before making your judgement. And don't believe everything on the internet, especially when the "10 year olds" math is terribly wrong.
They charge you in dollars not in btc. TLDR same as buying the hardware and mining yourself. This isnt a get rich scheme, and neither is the stock exchange. ROI is always going to be long term. Crypto is as deep or deeper then the stock market, and people go to school for years to learn to be invester brokers. What do you think we could do to be 'less shady'? I'm open to suggestions.
Please understand - we cannot guarantee you a profit. We're doing everything in our power to ensure customers understand what the Bitcoin mining fee is for, and that they may not ROI. Remember, this is meant to compete against mining with your own hardware - not buying Bitcoin outright.
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